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Memory Alpha talk:Canon policy

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[edit] Policy suggestions

I'd like to add a note to the policy here about licensed sources that are not considered "valid resources" on this site:

  • If an addition to a MA article is determined to be non-canon by discussion, or is admittedly from a source that is part of the licensed media we catalog here (novels, games, comics, etc.) -- it should probably be removed from the page, or moved to an apocrypha section. Since we have been adding lists of references directly to individual novels entries and so forth, this lessens the need for non-canon to interfere in the main articles -- the apocrypha section of USS Intrepid, for example, would not have to list details to the appearance of that ship in novels -- it would only list a link back to the novel, and the non-canon USS Intrepid should be defined there.
  • This could lead to the creation of some kind of boilerplate to place your links in -- a small box or browser at the bottom of USS Intrepid could disclaim that all other appearances of the ship are non-canon, and then list them accordingly.
  • In cases of a repeated addition of a non-canon subject, a disambiguation could be created to direct the user to both a canon policy explanation, and a list of links to novels or other media -- basically, when a user intending to add non-canon information goes to USS Jupiter, for example, there will be an explanation that we aren't creating an article with that name, but the jupiter was listed in more than one licensed resource and a definition for it should be placed there. If a subject appears in only one work, the disallowed article could be a redirect back to the game or novel it was mentioned it -- for example USS Sentinel (NCC-1733-B) redirects back to the game it appeared in.

Also, I consider some of the discussions on this talk page to have come to some conclusions about how this policy works -- i'd like to change the text of the policy page to reflect Cid's discussion below, i feel some good conclusions have been made and can be added to the policy, since they are moderately already in effect over the site. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 17:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Canon Policy on the Technical Manuals

I think Memory Alpha should come up with a canon policy on the Tech. Manuals now, because I've encountered some problems concerning these books recently. (See Defiant-class page -> Warhead). Ottens 11:50, 29 Jun 2004 (CEST)

[edit] Canon?

I have to admit that any attempt to redefine canon (or even define something like semi-canon) gives me a major headache. ;) I know I am arguing semantics here, but I think we shouldn't try to define various shades of canon (the article "canon should suffice), but instead concentrate on defining the ressources that are accepted by MA.

My suggestion would be to combine sections 1-3 into one paragraph stating that Memory Alpha is accepting everything canon, and additionally "official" material (reference works, interviews etc.) in the Background section of any article. -- Cid Highwind 10:35, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)

Perhaps 'semi-canon' was a bad choice for the title of that section (I'll fix it now), but we need to have a firm and clear statement about what Memory Alpha considers canon, since that is the point of the Policy article. The FAQ already says that everything in MA is canon, but how can we say that if we don't clearly state what is and isn't canon? Canon itself isn't all too clear about it, especially since it says that TAS is non-canon, yet we regard it as canon. See the dilemma? And it isn't redefining what canon is (since it follows the Paramount definition (excepting TAS)), simply clarifying. I take it you don't actually disagree with the divisions I've made, but rather the style? -- DarkHorizon 10:51, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)
What I mean is that, to use your example, we essentially shouldn't accept TAS as canon, but accept TAS as a valid resource although it is not canon. This might sound like a minor difference, but helps avoid confusion, I think. Thus, we should define the term canon in exactly one place (the article canon; official definition), and then use this page (perhaps even under a different name), to explain what resources we do or do not accept. -- Cid Highwind 11:52, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)
Hmmm. I see what you're getting at. Perhaps a simple change is required. 'What is considered a valid resource' and 'What is not considered a valid resource', perhaps? Something other than using the word 'canon'? - DarkHorizon 12:13, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)
Much better. ;) -- Cid Highwind 13:53, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)

In addition, I think I should probably wait for Dan or Harry before proceeding any further with changes. I've already made the valid/non-valid changes, but I'd best stop before I rewrite the whole rulebook, and I've only been a sysop for a day... :D -- DarkHorizon 12:25, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)

Hmm, this is difficult. I think I agree with Cid's suggestion to "accept TAS as valid but not canon." That would be most compatible with the Encyclopedia and Chronology. However, to my knowledge there's not much that contradicts later shows outright (with a few unusual exceptions). If anyone wants to dispute that, that's fine by me -- I'm not the foremost knowledge on TAS. ;-) At any rate, I think that TAS is something that, as a TV series produced by many of the same people involved in TOS, it deserves special exception.
As far as other references are concerned, maybe what we need to do is develop a hierarchy of the types of resources, going further than the episodes, the scripts, the references, the background books, and so forth. But what DarkHorizon's added so far looks good, concerning the differences between Trek universe and Trek franchise.
I've just thought of a new potential section for many articles... what if we had a header for "rationalization" in addition to "background"? Just a thought there, but that might help explain some things in certain circumstances. Either that, or let the genie out of the bottle for every random fanboy's theory on some obscure techie tidbit. Maybe that's not such a good idea after all. Anyway, this looks like it's starting to take shape. :-) -- Dan Carlson 18:29, 5 Feb 2004 (PST)

I've run into what I see as a minor stumbling block. The main 'Trek' entries (the ones viewed as 'in' the Trek universe) must be canon, with non-canon facts corralled into the 'background' sections, out of the main body. In this way, we can include large amounts of non-canon info about canon articles, without disrupting the article's canonical sanctity.. but what if it is an article that is completely unreferenced by canon trek. I just wrote Mackenzie Calhoun, but limited myself to only wiki linking titles that were canonical.. yet when i ported over to novels i found the titles of every NF book were wiki linked.. should I wiki link the titles of other non-canon licensed works (like comics) and then, furthermore, how important does a non-canon person place or thing have to be to deserve an article.. i believe Calhoun qualifies (read the article) but should there be an article on his non-canon homeworld and species, and new command?

No, there should not. The Calhoun article shouldn't really be there either. His only mentions are non-canon, and therefore not valid for inclusion. A 'Meta'-Trek article on Star Trek: New Frontier would be the best place to include that information.
A non-canon person would have to have a mention in canon/TAS to get an article. Simple as.
The novel articles are 'meta'-Trek, (see the Millennium article for a developing example), purely from the perspective of them being novels, and not 'real Trek' events; they would not link to places/people that are only in the novels. You should link comics if they are important, for example, a Meta-Trek article on The Mirror Universe Saga or theThe Worst of All Worlds arc would be good to have.
In addition, the non-canon mentions in canon articles should be strictly limited, such as Event/person/ship x is expanded on in the non-canon game/novel/etc. y, but not whole paragraphs describing the involvement of said event/person/ship in that game/novel/etc..-- Michael Warren 18:54, 16 May 2004 (CEST)
well, i defend the Calhoun article as 'Meta-Trek' because of his status of crossing over into comic and toy media, but i agree, that sounds like a decent policy concerning other non-canon articles being started, they would become a clutter here.. --Captainmike 02:39, 17 May 2004 (CEST)
I agree with Michael here - the Calhoun article is definitely not Meta-Trek. To qualify as such, an article mustn't describe persons/objects that are a part of the Trek universe. Articles about episodes, novels, actors writers etc. are Meta-Trek. An article about a non-canon character is not. I'd also like to repeat what Michael said in his last paragraph. Non-canon backgrounds of canon articles should be very limited. We don't need a complete sub-article spanning several paragraphs for that. -- Cid Highwind 11:33, 17 May 2004 (CEST)
I agree with Michael and Cid, that the definition of "meta-Trek" articles does not include non-canon character descriptions. The article on Calhoun is definitely well written, but it simply doesn't fit with what Memory Alpha is supposed to include at this point in time. Mike, I'd definitely suggest that you hold on to a copy of the article for future reference, because I think there may come a day when we start accepting articles of that sort. That just isn't going to happen right now, though. -- Dan Carlson 17:24, 17 May 2004 (CEST)
That is a shame really. My thoughts on the issue: One can never have to much information. If info isn't fit for mention in the article body, we move it to background. But if it isn't even fit for background, what then? I suggest the Talk pge (or maybe even a new kind of sub-page for every article, but that may prove to difficult). Just add whatever info you think is relevant, and have the reader make out for himself/herself what he/she wants to read or not. Of course things would clutter up fairly quickly if just anything is allowed, but for a suggestion: info like that of Calhoun could be added to a special talk page (of fan-fic for example).
In any case, don't just throw info away! Gather every bit you can find, even if it isn't fit for MA yet. A day may come when it is relevant. As long as you mention clearly that info isn't canon or official, there's no harm in mentioning it anyway, as long as it doesn't get in the way. You have to give people the whole story, or they will have to look for it elsewhere. And our goal of course is also to be complete. That includes non-canon info.
Anyway, I have an idea for how to display this extra material. Check Ten Forward. I'll continue the discussion there. -- Redge 11:02, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)


I have one suggestion. It might be simpler to accept everything thats been approved by paramount unless something on screen contradicts it. As I recall some time ago Paramount gave a statement to that effect, giving the novels a cannonized status unless something on screen proved the information false. These now non-cannon novels were then placed on an alternate reality status. Now I understand that this might make it difficult to pour through all the volumes of Star Trek history thats been printed, which I think many people would be willing to assist with, but I think it would give Memory Alpha a more comprehensive source of information and give the writers credit for their work. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cpt Kaziarl Nanaki (talk • contribs) .
That's what Memory Beta is for. They take all licensed material and have created a wiki covering that. The big issue for MA is that a number of the novels, while well-written contradict each other, and a number either contradict or have been contradicted by on-screen material. And that's a problem that we don't want to deal with... so we've chosen to stick to just the on-screen material. -- Sulfur 14:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear items

I think a decision finally has to be made regarding the tech manuals and Star Charts, as info seems to be slowly creeping into usage. So, a sort of community poll:

  • Other sources (such as publications or interviews) by Okuda, Sternbach and Drexler (authors of above, TNG and DS9 tech manuals) (this section may apply to all published Trek staffers: Gene Roddenberry, Jeri Taylor, etc)
    • Star Trek Encyclopedia: only recognize starship class information and registries devised here (or relayed from behind-the-scenes), disregard the unnecessary speculations and poor research --Captain Mike K. Bartel
    • Only recognize materials authored during or after their involvement with the shows (eliminating Drexler's fandom days Officer's Manual and Goldstein/Sternbach's 70s era Spaceflight Chronology (this might be a grey area, Sternbach wrote it during TMP production) --Captain Mike K. Bartel
    • Ignore references contradicted onscreen, however individual data points seem to all require discussion at this point. Example: Some data from Sternbach's magazine articles have been mostly shot down (USS Gih'lan), but some are still here (USS Hauck), etc. --Captain Mike K. Bartel
  • Star Trek Star Charts
    • Do not permit as valid - too many contradictions with canon/non-canon speculation. -- Michael Warren
    • Include data from Star Charts in Background section, though, as notation, but not in article bodies unless proven by filmed evidence. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel
  • Scripts and "behind the scenes" material (drafts, designs, unreleased footage)
    • Use if not canonically contradicted, may require discussion if an info was cut because it is contradictory --Captain Mike K. Bartel
    • What about TOS/Movie area behind the scenes events that are highly unlikely in the current perspective, like Arcturians being cloners (contradicts tng era federation policy, or Nomad being launched in 2002 (oubviously didn't happen in the real world)? Should these be treated more critticly than other behind the scenes info?-- User:Dog with meat

Anything to add to the above can be done, please sign contributions to the list with three tildes. -- Michael Warren 20:54, 11 Jun 2004 (CEST)

That all looks good to me. It's pretty much what we've been doing anyway. ;-) -- Dan Carlson 21:36, 14 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I agree on everything I see. Feel free to reword or discuss anything I added --Captain Mike K. Bartel 23:34, 14 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I won't comment on each of those items seperately, because my opinion is the same for all of them. In my opinion, none of this information should simply appear in the main section of an article. It's fine if it is included seperately, whether it is using an inline note (indented italics), the existing Appendices/Background subsection or another, yet to be defined, style (subpages, as suggested by Redge, for example).
My main reason for this is the fact that new Trek is still being produced, and we all should be aware that this information is not being used in that process. Much of the Star Charts info already has been contradicted (some of it was erroneous right from the start), for example. This means that such 'second class' (for lack of a better term, not trying to judge its quality) information might be contradicted at any time, in which case we would have to constantly check and rewrite our articles.
Additionally, the availability of such information has to be considered. I guess each one of us has near-instant access to a good part of all Trek episodes, which makes it fairly easy to check information presented here. The same can't be said about other resources. Not only were some of them only published in the US (I think), others even are out of print.
Third and last, but definitely not least: Do we really want to have a policy that allows info from this book but not from that book, a little bit from this interview but nothing from that scene cut from the movie? The result of this discussion should be a short and understandable rule, not a long list of exceptions and special regulations for each and every publication. -- Cid Highwind 12:41, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)
My opinion is that we Trek fans are used to complexity. I don't think it's a huge problem to have complex rules concerning various publications, as long as they're clearly spelled out and we have a vigilant member base keeping an eye on articles.
Concerning the availability of the various resources, IMO the whole POINT of Memory Alpha is to make the information from those kinds of less-well-known resources available to a wider fan base. Of course this partially conflicts with the canon policy, I know, but that's not necessarily a reason to not include the stuff. -- Dan Carlson 15:14, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)
It's not only the complexity I'm afraid of, it's also the idea of something that arbitrary that I don't like. If we decide that one publication should, but another publication should not be included, we can do it for two reasons: a)' because we like the first, but not the second, or b) because an underlying, small set of rules tells us that the first one is appropriate while the second one is not.
Reason a) is itself clearly inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia, and if it is reason b), we should try to spell out that underlying set of rules instead of listing its outcome.
Regarding conflicts with the canon policy, I can only repeat my opinion. What I especially liked when I first visited MA was its clear policy regarding non-canon material: only canon, nothing else. In my opinion, this is a big part of what makes MA so special - to be able to trust the information on this page. We shouldn't compromise that by allowing such conflicts; the least we should do is to separate this information. -- Cid Highwind 16:54, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I also have come to expect (and enjoy contributing) to the canon-only atmosphere of MA, but at some point you must include information that the creators themselves used as reference. For a while, it seemed that the creators were willing to disregard old filmed data, but would latch right onto any ideas from the 'offical texts' This was true of the Franz Joseph material that made it onscreen, this is even more true of the Sternbach & co. Tech Manuals.. the TNG TM made such an impact that many stories focused on cencepts presented there, such as the saucer landing scenario, escape pods, and captain's yachts. All of these seemed to be introduced based on their original invention in that text. This is why we must determine the relevance of these sources now. The type-18 shuttlepod article wouldn't have a name if Tech Manual data points werent allowed. I think that a lot of what everybody thinks that they know about canonical facts isnt derived directly from the screen as they think.
However, including all "licensed" works would be a free for all. That's why we are drawing these lines. I don't want to see entries from obscure novels and comics just yet, not without some solid division (like a subsection). The creators of the show have always used the concept of canon to avoid answering to the whims of media that are beyond their control (like licensed games, novels and comics).. however, the references they themselves create are not out of their control, they give and have given them massive amounts of credence and i feel we are responsible for doing the same, in a responsible manner. --Captain Mike K. Bartel 17:10, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I have to agree with Cid, that Memory Alpha's goal first and foremost should be to become a provider of clear and accurate canon information. So far, we've done pretty well, but there are some ways that we can improve on that issue. (What we're discussing now is the best way to do that, IMO.) However, I also agree with Mike, in that a lot of the background information that was created by the production people and writers and never made it onto the screen. For lack of a better description, this stuff could be called "official" but not "canon." (This includes stuff like the TNG:TM and DS9:TM, among others.)
I think we're all on the same page here, though. We just need to come up with a way to accurately define the policy. -- Dan Carlson 21:01, 15 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I put up a policy suggestion here. Much of it is reused from the existing canon policy. I tried to restrict myself to three different categories of resources: Valid, Invalid and Restricted (anything between the first two). I still think we shouldn't get any more detailed/complicated than that. The suggested policy allows to include any information from "official reference works" as long as a) the subject was mentioned in canon Trek at least once and b) it appears in a somehow separated section or note. This should satisfy both those that want to have their information as complete as possible (read everything) as well as those that want their information as "canon" as possible (read only main text without indented parts). What do you think? -- Cid Highwind 20:45, 16 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I've made a couple of minor additions and clarifications to the policy, and (more importantly) added a section to the Manual of Style concerning background information and notes. Also, I came up with (IMO) better names for the two types of articles: "Trek Universe" and "Trek Franchise" articles. (I never exactly liked the term "meta-Trek", myself. -- Dan Carlson 02:17, 17 Jun 2004 (CEST)
I would like, once again, to suggest the /extra page concept. In practice it would mean that much more background data can be allowed, but that is seperated from the original article and displayed on a seperate page. E.G.: When writing an article about the Redge-class, you write only a few lines which state that Data mentioned it once during long hours of his ceaseless babling, then creat a Redge-class/extra page where you cite the Yet-Another-TM 's official specs and data on the Redge-class. This way, people who want their info complete can visit the page, while people who want their info canon can only read the article itself. -- Redge 11:27, 17 Jun 2004 (CEST)


I think that Computer games & books should be allowed to be used, but put as non-canon. There should be a section of the article that has the non-canon information, but it should be labeled like this:

"The Following information is NOT canon."

Articles about non canon subjects should be allowed, but there should be a notice stating that it is non canon. Luke80 - 23/7/2004.

I disagree, I do not believe that we should clutter this site up with worthless information. We should be sticking to what is said and seen in episodes and films. I appreciate that fans like to expand the Star Trek universe for themselves, but that doesn't mean that a Miranda-class Starship is suddenly X metres long just because some guy on a website said so. Alex Peckover 09:12, Jul 23, 2004 (CEST)
That's great in theory, but in practice you end up with problems like Mackenzie Calhoun mentioned above. This isn't some guy on a website—it's an officially licensed series of novels, included in several other cross-show novel series, with toys for God's sake, that nevertheless isn't officially canon. I do agree that we shouldn't accept J. Random Trekkie's opinion just because he can write in wikicode, but there's a good amount of almost-canon material out there that we ought to cover. —Brent Dax 10:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'm pretty satisfied with the solution I've come up with -- if you look at novels and comics articles like The Wounded Sky, After the Fall, Star Trek: Titan or Enterprise Log 1, you see there is plenty of room to include descriptions about non-canon topics and ideas -- but they are restricted from being mixed with canon data in the main articles -- for example, "The Wounded Sky" has a description of the replacement USS Intrepid, with links to other appearances of the ship in novels, but without confusing the reader by adding a large chunk of non-canon text to the "USS Intrpeid" article itself -- keeping it "pure" if you will -- the article will only contain the canon data, with a possible small background section with links to the non-canon extra info.
Perhaps we could even design a template, a browser or attention tag that would be like "Further information" and have a link to a description of the canon policy, and a link to all novels and comics that mention a USS Intrepid -- thereby allowing us to remove all noncanon info from the article, except for the links to the various other USS Intrepids from novels, and easily inform the reader about why novels are separate. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk

[edit] Deleted scenes?

Is information from deleted scenes seen as canon? --Defiant | Talk 23:36, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure myself. We have several articles like USS Hemingway, USS Ticonderoga, Martin Madden, and Denab system, mostly from deleted scenes from Star Trek Nemesis. However, the scenes also claim Beverly Crusher left to head Starfleet Medical, and I've been adamant about keeping that as background information in Crusher's article. To be fair, all of the aforementioned articles are clearly tagged as coming from deleted scenes... -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 02:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I've made lks to Deleted scene. That will give us a place to compile them as well as another place to address the issue. Jaf 16:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
It's a delicate debate because there were many production ressources that were accepted. The problem here is that there are 2 categories of deleted scenes : those refused because the producers changed their minds and those deleted because of time consideration or rythm of the episode. The fact that the Hemingway towed the critically-damaged Enterprise-E to drydock doesn't conflict with the universe and could be easily added in a new version of the film, other ressources (books...) probably refer to the Hemingay in that way because it was decided so by the production staff. The fact that Crusher leaves the ship for Starfleet Medical could result as a production decision that it should better not be stated in case of a futur movie, as Sulu who takes the command of the Excelsior in an early movie (don't know which). So the distinction is very hard, I'm hoping a future DVD version will include them (some DVD enable to include directly deleted scenes in a movie or not) - Philoust123 14:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phase II

I have been working under the impression that info from the unmade series Star Trek: Phase II is non-canon, and I have marked Xon (Spock 2.0 for those of you not familiar) for deletion. Do we have an official policy on Phase II? Jaz 22:28, 8 Jan 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Update to Canon Policy

Below are the two current suggestions for a new "canon policy". I personally believe that it would be more productive to just work on one instead. As suggested somewhere below, this could be achieved by first working on "Suggestion 1" until that one captures all the fine points of our current "inofficial code of conduct", then, in a second step, try to find the best phrasing for that. If possible, try to merge the two suggestions somehow, and please don't create more suggestions... -- Cid Highwind 13:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion 1

[edit] Suggestion 1 comments

Over a year ago Cid Highwind posted a policy suggestion here. Given some recent discussions I have had as regards how we know what we know about the Trek universe (see the discussion pages on Earth-Romulan War and Picard family album), I feel it is important to update the Canon Policy to clarify what counts - and does not count - as valid source material. Whether that is resurrecting and updating Cid's, starting with a new one, or something else altogether, something is needed to be proposed, finalized, and - where necessary - enforced by editors. I have only been active on this site for a little over a month, and already I am weary of endless discussions of what should count as valid sources solely because of a lack of clear guidance on the issue. I am willing to invest some time on it if it would make any difference; as an attorney I understand something of the process of establishing the relative weight and admissibility of evidence. But I'm also willing to simply comment on someone else's work. I would just like something to be final and conclusive, inasmuch as is possible, so we can move on with the task of working to better the site. Aholland 20:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

That's a very good idea. Since the suggestion you linked to is a slightly rephrased version of the one that already exists, with some "inofficial" guidelines added in that were valid at that time (and probably still are), it might be the most viable option to "resurrect and update" that one. I did some minor cleanup already (no content change), the rest could be discussed here, if necessary. If anything this policy regulates has already been discussed and decided elsewhere (although I can't think of anything special at the moment), link to the relevant discussion here. -- Cid Highwind 21:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm up for an update of the policy. Allow me to chime in on what I believe should be allowed as valid sources. For the purposes of this wiki, I think any and all production info made for a production, regardless of whether they were seen, should be considered valid resources, so long as they are IDENTIFIED as not having been seen or used (i.e. in italics or as background info) and so long as it does not interfere with any concrete, established canon information. This seems to have been the accepted standard at least for the past several months. Otherwise, we're gonna have a lot of deletions/revisions to make. That said, had such work not already been put into the inclusion of production info, I probably would agree to leave it out. And that's all I gotta say about that... for now. ;) --From Andoria with Love 22:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Which unseen production info has been accepted, and is it really that widespread? Has there been any form of discussion about these inclusions? Some links would help, because simply allowing "any and all" production info seems a little much to me, especially in the light of just having had a discussion where the final consensus apparently was to not use all "production info".
However, I'd like to start small and add to the policy that scripts are considered valid resources regarding any spelling issues, as far as this "script spelling" is not overruled by on-screen evidence. -- Cid Highwind 22:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Plus, as a recent comment on another page reminds me: I think that production resources of objects seen on-screen should be considered valid: for example, some display graphic that was definitely seen, but not legible. If we have access to a higher-quality version of the same graphic, we should be allowed to use that. I don't know if that is what Shran means, perhaps? -- Cid Highwind 22:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I support a hierarchy of validity, however, I think we should remain critical, adaptable and democratic. Jaf 22:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Jaf
Among the unseen production info I speak of are Aaamazzarite, Zaranite, and Thomas Vanderbilt, just to name a few. Also, I do have a higher-quality version of the graphic used in the show, which I will upload as soon as I am finished with my "rounds" (going through the recent changes). --From Andoria with Love 00:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Canon Policy
In an effort to help the cause, I've taken Cid Highwind's proposal of last year, updated it based on recent discussions and this page, and placed it here. Please feel free to review and comment on it. If nothing else, it can be a forum for discussion of what does and doesn't work. Aholland 03:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to question novels, games and comics being lumped in as completely unreferenceable (as opposed to official reference works) -- a number of articles have benefitted because a novel has named an unnamed character or starship, as long as this information is kept completely in the background subsection or paragraph (not the main in-POV article body). As far as fan fiction, I agree that those particular reference works or other media should be referenced as little as possible -- possibly not from canon, in-POV articles at all. (The wording is obviously lacking, it mentions publishers Titan (UK), Simon & Schuster, and Pocket, but leaves out Decipher and Ballantine, Bantam, DC, Heyne, etc. -- all of these companies (and more) have been allowed to publish under the name "Star Trek").
The thrust of that old policy statement was originally to discourage both non-canon and fan fiction from being included as in-POV article data, obviously we've made no doubts known on our policy that no information from a novel or game should end up in the article body or be treated as canon. I think that anything that has a relevant history in licensed non-canon publications (i.e. novels,comics,games,reference works,collectibles) should be footnoted as such. Kind of like a "further reading" list. If there's a starship that's been featured in 5 novels and 2 comic series, that would be an extra couple of line of comma separated links -- and non-canon references don't need to be expounded upon, even in the background section body.
By recommending a form now, it could prevent a lot of future disputes about how to deal with users adding non-canon info -- it would be a simple addition by a copyeditor that non-canon info should be and has been removed to another location. -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 03:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I'll put something in and people can see whether they like it. Aholland 04:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm impressed with the Proposed Canon Policy. Two suggestions; 1) The stlye of hierarchy in the Valid Resource section should also be used in the Restricted Validity Resources section. As these need not be exclusive, an overall hierarchy of validity can easily be created. 2) A middle ground exist unoffically between things deemed "legitimate in-article citation" and things deemed "background information", this is done by way of in-article text that is indented and in italics, this should be continued and accounted for. Jaf 04:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Jaf

Thanks - I appreciate your kind words and your ideas. It's a little late tonight, so it might not be my finest work, but take a look at the update in a few minutes. Aholland 04:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I have not yet had the chance to go through every single part of the policy (although, I must say, it looks very professional -- which is hardly surprising taking into account who wrote it). However, I will say this (again): Any policy involving the complete removal of information created for production but dismissed because it just wasn't seen (either clearly, or at all) should be removed. If it isn't, then we can say good-bye to, oh, just off the top of my head:
  1. Aaamazzarite
  2. Arcturian
  3. Betelgeusian
  4. Betelgeuse II
  5. It's Federation Day!
  6. K'normian
  7. Kazar
  8. Kazarite
  9. Natha Kell
  10. Megarite
  11. O'Ryan's Planet
  12. Georges Picard
  13. Rhaandarite
  14. Rigellian
  15. Sarahd
  16. Sauria
  17. Saurian
  18. Shamin
  19. Solar News Network
  20. Thomas Vanderbilt
  21. Titus Cleet
  22. T'Jen
  23. USS Hawk
  24. Zaran II
  25. Zaranite
Obviously, this is only a select few of the pages that would be affected or even removed by any new policy restricting unseen background information. The fact that it was not seen is unimportant; the fact that the production staff took the time to make the information is, as that means, regardless of whether it was seen or not, it was there all the same. Deleting all these articles is simply out of the question. Keep in mind, this is a wiki for all things Trek; we're striving for completeness here.
Also, anything suggesting that a certain part of an episode or film has to go because it contradicts with something else and is therefore considered "invalid" has got to go, for obvious reasons. There should be no argument that anything clearly shown on-screen is canon and valid.
Lastly, as for the historical archive image: obviously, the individual who supplied us with the image wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons. We're gonna have to accept that. Like it or not, however, this is what appeared – appeared, mind you – in the episode, and we have to deal with it. Pushing it to the side as though it never existed is, obviously, not an option. --From Andoria with Love 15:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your listing those - I'll take a look at them for context, as it is not my intention to have a clearer policy result in wholesale deletions. On the artwork you were able to get (if you have more you should consider posting them as a group on an image site - very rare and very nice), my point was that had it been a consistent, thoughtfully prepared piece, I would have gladly accepted the dates and facts - even if they didn't quite fit with my existing understanding. But I think as a practical matter it was thrown together hastily and was intended as mere background in the Mirror episode. I submit it shouldn't be relied on too much as guidance for canon. Aholland 20:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, he's the thing. First off, this canon policy is waaay too long; the way it is now, I doubt many would take the time to sit and read it. It's probably longer than any of our other policy pages. As Tim told me on the IRC, "Too much policy is (usually) a bad thing." Is there a way we can slim this down a bit, and put it in simpler terms? That said... is a new canon policy really necessary at all? All we really needed to do was establish that unseen background information is not acceptable for the main part of the article, and for the record, I don't believe this new one settles the Tech Manual issue. The previous canon policy, with the exception of defining that unseen background material is not acceptable, worked just fine; I don't really see any need to drag it on like that. Note that I'm not saying it's badly written; it's very well done and very detailed. But it's just a bit too much.
That said... I oppose any change in the policy that discounts anything seen on-screen, anything contained within deleted scenes, and anything contained within official scripts and other documents (i.e. backstage notes). I am not sure whether the information of It's Federation Day! counts in this respect, but it would be great if it does. But, as I said, I oppose any policy that discounts these items, and since this new policy can't move forward unless all issues are resolved. (At least, I think that's how this works -- that's how it should work anyway). Besides, the thing that needs to be kept in mind is that the POV is In-universe; it doesn't matter whether we can see it, but whether the crew can see it. --From Andoria with Love 00:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I "concur" with most of what Shran said (including the quoting). The proposed policy reads a little too much like a "contract" with invariable loopholes and stuff (not a lawyer, sorry). Aholland did take a lot of time with his proposal, and it's a good read, but I don't think there was much need for such a thorough "upheaval." There's the old addage of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and other than the supposed "Tech Manual" part everything has been solved and worked well for the last 2 and a half years. I believe that some things need to have an italicized note indicating their source (which I have added to all sources based on It's Federation Day!), but I think the already used canon policy which states that we should discuss these matters on the sources talk page is good enough for me. Now, Aholland seems to be the only one currently having problems, but I suggest that he currently try to work with the current policy, maybe by working on some purely "canon" subjects, and then in a couple months, when he is fully "used to" the policy, he should either update his proposal and re-propose, or, even better, offer suggestions for additions to the current policy.--Tim Thomason 01:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, I did not initially suggest a revision to the Canon policy. Cid Highwind did over a year ago; it's just that little happened since then.
The problem is that there IS no real canon policy. The page starts out with an apology that it is merely a draft. Then with virtually every section heading it says "this is under discussion or in flux". That is not a policy; that is chaos on the hoof.
The only clear part of the entire existing policy, the only section without a proviso that "this doesn't really count", is that background information from the production staff - which would include all the reference works and such - cannot form the basis for an article but has to be put into a background section. But that's it; everything else is in the air.
It is possible to have a simpler canon policy, but I don't think it would make people happy. The simplest is: "if it is not clearly said or clearly visable on screen, put it in background and do not base articles on it or use it to bolster statements about the Trek Universe. No books, no scripts, no production art." Or the other way; "Anything goes." I submit that anything beyond that immediately gets complex.
I just did an analysis using my draft of Shran's latest graphic here. It would let it come in, at least in most part I think, which is more than the current policy would do. But the way it does so, the process of thought to get to a conclusion, is - in my opinion - much better than endless discussion about whether it is good, bad, or indifferent. Only to start up again after it appears settled.
I agree that it is longer than the current draft policy. But it is clearer too, and addresses directly many of the areas not addressed today.
I do not know who ultimately decides if the current non-policy stays, gets updated with something like mine, or gets updated into something else. But I would like to find that out - it makes a bit of a difference whether I keep trying to provide something that might help the site, or whether I just give it up and accept that there isn't a policy, just a kind-of-mostly consensus of sorts on most, but not all, resources. Aholland 02:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was a little harsh (had a long and bad day). You're right about current policy being "incomplete" but I'd like to point out that the stuff about background information is under the "unclear" section which implies that it is in "flux." I think this is a simple "inclusionist" vs. "exclusionist" debate. I believe the list of "what is not a valid resource" should be enough to tell us what not to use, as everything else is clearly taken directly from episodes (in front of or behind the scenes). I think with clearer citations (in italics and indented, or in a background section), there shouldn't be any problem with using seen or unseen production-made info, regardless of clarity. Even the silliness, which should be explained in background, shouldn't stop us from including info. MA is about everything officially "Star Trek" and even non-canon stuff gets at least its own page (info from them can be listed on valid pages with an apocrypha section). As for the last part, sorry, there is no one who decides if the current policy is changed, replaced, or kept, it's a community decision, just like everything else.--Tim Thomason 02:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Tim; I've had a long day too and am hoping it doesn't come across here. The place where the inclusion/exclusion gets dicey is when material like the graphic Shran recently posted has data that could be the basis for factual claims about the Trek Universe (from an "in-universe" perspective). If it is simply included in a background section - making it second-class data - some interesting elements of the universe may be lost. If it is simply proclaimed as "truth" and used indiscriminately, the careful script continuity issues over the years could be overturned in an instant by some careless mistake by the art department. Balancing those two extremes in a reasoned, fair, and - above all - predictably consistent manner is where policy comes in. And I propose that clear, enforced, policy will make the authoritative nature of the site that much stronger. Whether the policy be my concept or someone elses. Aholland 03:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of this new policy and I like most of the proposed set-up, it needs to be hammered out and it needs a lot more community imput, but overall it would be a step forward for us. But, I do worry that it may become too ridged. The problem is that many of us feel that props (such as view screen info) and parts of scripts that were not aired should be included in a way that gives them a little more credibility then background info, we often do this by citing in indentation and italics, Zimbata for example. An expansion of this technique is used to create whole pages, such as Aaamazzarite. I agree with this procedure and would like to see it continued, but it is all completely unofficial according to the current policies of MA and a lawyer has called us on it, a correct move on his part. The next thing we need to do is measure community opinion. In light of this I would like to remind everyone of odd situations like Rasiinian and ask if we would like to continue dealing with the unique on an issue by issue basis. Jaf 03:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Jaf

The Rasiinian article is an interesting example. My proposed canon policy would say that the existence of an alien like that (in both episodes) is a valid resource, but any information on his background, name, etc. would be a Restricted Validity Resource. That's because the information would be behind-the-scenes or production material not included in the episode. There is then a provision that if the resource meets certain criteria (e.g., no conflicts and a minor part of the Trek universe), which this one clearly does, an article like this can be created pretty much just like it is now. Well, with one exception: the current episode citations don't really point people to where the information contained in the main body of the article is; it points to episodes where only some of the information lies. But fix the citations and it would fall neatly within the proposed canon policy, and be permitted without a huge fuss. All this without an exceptions-based approach - just as part of the normal policy.  :) Aholland 06:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I just want to address some of the details right now, surely not the whole discussion. Regarding necessity, I think that an updated policy is definitely necessary. As Aholland correctly pointed out, what we currently have is not only "not a good policy", it isn't even any policy - the page states at the top that the following is just a draft that needs to be discussed and refined, and that statement has been there for two years now! The only reason why this even worked for the whole time is the fact that we are a relatively small group of people, most of which don't even come close to the issues this policy should regulate. That doesn't mean it has to stay like this in the future, and if there's a possibility to put in policy form what now only exists as dozens of consensus decisions on unrelated pages, can there be anything wrong with that? Truth is, this is not turning out as something that disallows behaviour that was allowed before - it is exactly the opposite: many articles we now have don't really adhere to what is currently on this policy page, and this is a big chance for everyone to get these articles validated (so to speak). Contribute to that process instead of working against it...
Regarding verbosity: It's true the new suggestion is one of the longest policies we have - on the other hand, the "Canon policy" is also one of the most important policies we have. It can't hurt to be verbose in that case. To address this concern, we could add a "summary" of the policy to the top of the page, for example saying that "generally, everything that appeared in an episode or movie can be used as a resource for an article. More specific details and exceptions can be found below." Or something like that... -- Cid Highwind 11:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hangs head in shame* I think I may be an indent-failure. Sorry. But I was having the very same thought of a summary very much like Cid has suggested. I'll add something later tonight for people to look at. Aholland 20:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Aholland's draft proposal is far longer than Tim's, but it is also far more precise and I find it much easier to understand. As a newbie, the revisions or reversions senior archivists made to my early faulty contributions was baffling and frustrating, and getting the hang of MA's subtle conventions wasn't so easy. Tim's comment above (on a bad day, granted), suggesting Aholland wait a couple months until he's "used to" the policy, illustrates the problem quite well. As it stands, new archivists are expected to acclimate through osmosis. It's not efficient – for the new contributors, nor the senior players who have to correct their work. I'm glad Cid brought up the summary idea, because that the leaves the body of the policy free to be densely precise. I read Tim's draft and "got it" because I've spent time here recently, but I think I would have been scratching my head over some of the more ambiguous bits just a couple of months back. Aholland's formal language and structure is daunting at first glance, but we can handle it, and MA will benefit from the clarity.
As for a substantive suggestion, since canon is so closely linked to the speculation bugaboo, I'd like to see a line in the "Conflicts in Valid Resources" section address references that may have the highest canon credentials on the surface, but are not necessarily reliable within the universe. For example, sources based on a specific character's claims may be mentioned, but should be weighed in context of that character's nature and interests. Specifically, if Picard told Riker that 5 Federation starships patrolled the Romulan Neutral Zone at any given time in 2372, it would be fine to note the deployment in an appropriate article. If Tomalok told Picard that 47 warbirds patrolled his side of the Zone, the information is suspect. A simple. "face-value" estimate of Tomalok's statement ("Tomalok claimed 47 ships patrolled the Zone") could reasonably be included in the body of the appropriate article, without the label of speculation.
I'm not saying we aren't doing this kind of thing now, but if a common practice is a de-facto policy, we might as well codify it for the sake of everyone's, especially newcomer's, understanding. I'm sure there are better examples of MA's conventional wisdom regarding canon that we might take for granted, but deserve clear explanation. --Aurelius Kirk 18:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I think Aurelius Kirk's point is valid, although that Picard is a pretty tricky fellow. :) The cleanest thing would be to require that all claims be attributed, as we know that statements of "truth" - even in-universe - can be bogus. (Janeway's ancestor in "11:59", for example.) But that makes the articles somewhat rough as a read. Let me try putting something in as guidance and people can see if it works for them. Aholland 19:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I've already stated that my main concern is the length and breadth (same thing, just being articulate) of the proposal, but I do have other some concerns with the content that I'll go over:
Summary of policy: The summary's alright, if a little too summarized for this work.
Article types: The two article types is the same as what we have already, and I agree on them.
Citations: Now it's starting to read like a contract, but I at least agree somewhat, and it's just trying to be thorough. I'll discuss the restricted validity when I get to that section.
Resources: This is what I mostly covered under my proposal, as it seems to be the main "issue" we are dealing with.
Episodes: The episode list matches everyone elses (maybe add a link to Star Trek movies). I disagree with the note that says we can't create articles based on things which aren't seen/heard in an "episode," as I stated elsewhere about my opinion that production material created for an episode can be used bla bla bla...
Valid Resources: again disagree with you on the production material stuff but yeah, okay.
Restricted Validity Resources: Now, your adding a level of precedence within this "category" that could cause confusion, and I'm not sure but I think you could probably shorten/summarize this section.
Restricted Validity Resources and Initial Article Creation: This seems to go against what was stated under Episodes. What defines a "minor point" or "script idea" in the Star Trek universe? A simple discussion or "common sense?" Some people might think the Romulan War is of little importance (it might be to the Rasiinians), so this is too subjective for me, especially in an "in-universe" point-of-view.
Non-Canon Resources: I don't see anything wrong with using the occassional non-canon image for an apocrypha section (it's not really done though), especially for big articles. I also don't see what's wrong with adding to as many articles as possible information from a non-canon source (in an apocrypha section), as long as you don't repeat information.
Invalid Resources: I agree with leaving out Fan made stuff from in-universe articles.
Conflicts in Valid Resources: I don't think this needs to be described in so much detail, again we should trust the discussion method somewhat.
Conflicts in Restricted Validity Resources: What if the "Restricted resources" are equal?
Tolerance in Valid Resources: I easily agree that not of this should effect validity.
Demotion of Valid Resources: I don't know about this "demotion" thing at all. How do we know if some material is "nonsensical" or built to "amuse" the staff? Do we ask a staff member if they were amused? What constitutes an "obvious joke" or "absurd image?"
Uncertainty: Again, how can you tell if the production crew "took sufficient care" of something?
Deleting Invalid Articles in Whole or in Part: I don't think you should be working on changing the deletion policy as well as the canon policy. Clearly, if they fit under the deletion policy, then they should be added to the VfD page as always.
The main problem I see is the length, breadth, and the fact that is doesn't really cover what MA currently has. I don't think we should make any drastic changes, just work around what we have, which is the site that I've been using with glee for over a year now, and hope that everyone else can understand, if they don't agree.--Tim Thomason 00:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Tim, my original request was that you tell me the outcome you wanted on "questionable" resources and I could then see if the policy was too inflexible to net you the desired outcome. But I can also deal with the above, too. I'll try to hit each point where you had issues, and ignore the things you were all right with.  :)
  • The general prohibition on creating articles based on something other than what is seen and heard is an episode is a short-form Paramount version (what you have as the basis of your policy, and one reason I find it a bit internally conflicting). That is also the current Memory Alpha draft policy (only the episodes themselves are valid as resources). There is a single exception to that rule later in the proposal that says that Restricted Validity Resources (a term I admit I stole from Cid Highwind's draft) CAN form the basis of an article if they hit certain criteria. So I THINK that resolves the issue for you. I hope.
  • The production material things and valid resources section reflect my understanding of the current Memory Alpha draft policy, and seem to reflect current practices.
  • I put in the levels of precedence in Restricted Validity Resources at the request of a user during an earlier collaboration with the community. See above.
  • In the Citations section I stated that the exception to using valid resources for an article was in the Restricted Validity Resources and Initial Article Creation section. I can put another cross-reference under Episodes, but I figured the reader would have already known that from above. But it is an easy add - just makes it a tad longer.  :)
  • "Minor point" was intentionally subjective and open to interpretation. The problem is articles like Cait. I would be just as happy if the article didn't exist; it was never mentioned anywhere except a writer's guide. Yet there are people who desperately want articles like that to flesh out the background of Trek. I'm fine permitting them, just label them as non-canon and we're done. The problem is without some kind of minimization test we would be stuck with having "He Walks Among Us" - an abortive script idea from TOS that was worked on a bit and scrapped. From an anlysis standpoint the two points of data are about the same: both unused production work. So "minor" was my attempt to introduce some guidance, while explicitly excepting out scripts and such. The only other alternative is to let everything in, which is not current draft policy or practice. (And the Romulan War is spoken dialogue, so wouldn't be at issue here.)
  • The prohibition on non-canon images was based on my understanding that Memory Alpha doesn't want to turn into a picture gallery. If there is enough server space, I'm okay removing that point. I was just trying to keep the cost of the site down and follow existing practice which does not have book covers in other than Trek Franchise articles. (Can someone who actually knows weigh in on how much of an issue more images are?)
  • Again regarding non-canon, my understanding of current draft policy and current practice (and what makes some sense to me) is that non-canon coverage is NOT the primary goal of Memory Alpha. If we allow in as much non-canon as people want, the non-canon could easily overwhelm the canon and turn the site into a free-for-all as regards expansive and meandering articles. Even if contained in a single section.
  • The conflicts in valid resources was put in to provide guidance and a couple of rules on how to have a discussion about conflicts. Else everything is equal and endless debate ensues. I don't see that as a valuable use of time, so am trying to instill some order to the analysis.
  • Restricted resources being equal is not a real problem. They can all have equal weight since they go into a separate section. It was, again, a result of a user's request and does provide some general guidance on how to think about which conflicting Restricted resource "should" win out. But does not mandate it.
  • Demotion is, I think, absolutely necessary. If you can think of another way of removing just the hamster wheel from the Enterprise-D engineering cutaway, or removing the door label silliness, please bring it up. Otherwise they are valid resources (since seen) and clearer images exist of their production art. The other alternative would be to say that production art cannot be used for any purpose, that only what you see on screen counts. However, that is not the best solution in my opinion.
  • The "took sufficient care" was intentionally vague. For example, in VOY: "11:59" there is a closeup of a newspaper article. If you freeze the frame you'll see that everything other than the headlines are repeats of the same paragraphs that have nothing to do with the headlines. Sufficient care was not evident there. On the other hand, but for the hamster wheel and such, sufficient care was clearly used in the Enterprise-D engineering cutaway. I don't know how to include one and exclude the other without some kind of subjective test like that.
  • The deletion section was there because it is in the current draft policy and I was following format. It seems to make sense to keep it, but I can be talked out of it.
Tim, you close by saying that the current version of the policy I initially drafted (different than now, as I added/deleted based on community feedback) makes drastic changes to Memory Alpha. I will again ask: please let me know of examples of articles that exist (or that you wish existed) that would be materially affected by this draft. I am not trying to be dense, but I genuinely do not think it the problem you do; I think it sets out basic current practice as the norm. And keeping the existing approach is not really an option - without some clear and non-draft standards of conduct and practice, the site will devolve into a free-for-all which benefits no one. Aholland 16:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Implementing policy change?

Given the foregoing collaborative changes to the draft policy, my not hearing any additional concerns about this codification of many existing practices, the need for a real policy, and my understanding of the way policies work around here (propose, collaborate, post), I will post it to the main page shortly. Just thought I'd give a heads up. Aholland 16:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Has proposal number 2 been withdrawn or have these two been merged? If not, shouldn't there be a vote or something between the two proposed policies? Also, my question concerning the Jeri Taylor of course also applies to this proposal as well. Kennelly 20:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Under the current draft, no novel would be considered a valid resource, including Jeri's. (Also, why Jeri's and not Roddenberry's on the Paramount site, I don't know.) They may be referenced in Trek Universe articles, but should only appear in "Non-Canon", "Apocrypha", or similarly and clearly identified sections of articles. And not take up too much space. But they can be Trek Franchise articles (as are other books today).
I asked about the process for updates earlier (votes, editorial board, that sort of thing), and the response I got was to the effect that people just "do" things and then others yell or don't yell. This notice was sort of my way of suggesting a "pre-yell" period, and if I don't hear a lot of complaints and desires for further discussion I will post and see what comes of it. Aholland 21:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I already stated it in this discussion, but I definitely did in discussions elsewhere - I believe that in its current form, this draft does not "disallow" any articles that were allowed before, and covers most of what is current "inofficial code of conduct". A small number of existing articles are not "valid" according to this draft, but they weren't exactly valid before, either. There has been some discussion between Tim and Aholland regarding possible differences between the suggested policies, but that discussion seems to have died down as well. I don't see a problem with moving this draft to the policy page itself. Any deletion resulting from this new policy would be discussed on the Vfd page anyway, and if it becomes apparent that there's still some serious "bug" in this policy, I'm sure we can fix it. -- Cid Highwind 21:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

So, if I understand it correctly both proposed canon policies are still on the floor,right?If this is so, I seriously object to put this proposal on the Main Page just because there is no longer any discussion. If Proposal 2 has still the support of its creator and the differences were not merged into a common draft policy, there MUST be some kind of vote in my opinion because as I see it there has been similar opposition to both proposals. I think the Canon-Policy is the most crucial thing on MA and should not be decided in the usual "informal" way. Kennelly 23:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

For all the reasons in Cid's note above I went ahead and posted it; it seemed the most logical way to move forward. If there remain concerns - theoretical or practical - with the policy, please bring them up here so we can discuss and address them in a timely way. Aholland 14:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion 2

I have just posted an alternative to Aholland's proposal that I feel should cover most, if not all, of MA's current pages and still work without the unnecessary "non-canon"-based pages. The proposal is located on my user page if someone wants to check it out, and comments are welcome here or on my talk page.--Tim Thomason 00:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion 2 comments

I just read your condensed new canon policy. I think it is extremely well done. Very thourough, and more importantly, consise. You have my full support. Jaz talk | novels 01:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I support this new policy. It's short, sweet and to the point, and touches all bases. Good job, Tim. --From Andoria with Love 01:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at Tim's draft and have a few initial comments, referenced to its numbered paragraphs:
1. The definition of "canon" is dealt with separately in Memory Alpha. It is both different from and more detailed than the Paramount version (at least the one I am aware of at http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/help/faqs/faq/676.html.) So Memory Alpha already breaks Paramount’s canon definition. Additionally, referencing the Paramount one is problematic as theirs is stated as a "rule of thumb" instead of an actual policy. Valid sources are mentioned, but not defined (although it is possible the remainder of the policy is supposed to describe them; it’s a little unclear).
2. This paragraph requires that all supplementary material not "clearly shown" in the episodes themselves (Shran’s most recent production art, all other production art from reference books, etc.) be separated from the main body of articles and made, essentially, side notes. This would indicate they could not be used as the basis for articles themselves or used to bolster information otherwise viewed. This is the current Memory Alpha policy in that regard, that I was under the impression was at issue with some people.
3. Conflicting with, but not referencing, paragraph 2, this paragraph would permit articles to – I think – use and be based on information from all the episodes, the Animated Series, all deleted scenes (which, of course, would include outtakes, alternative takes, and all other raw footage), all drafts of all scripts (including unproduced story treatments?), all production material of any type "meant for canon" (not sure what that means), material "not clearly seen in canon" (not sure what that means, as it would include actual cardboard props), and all graphics material produced, regardless of whether it was used or not. Precedence is to be given to canon first, but what that means as a practical matter (does it mean the other material is then removed?) is unclear. This is an extraordinarily broad scope of allowed sources and does not reflect the current practices within Memory Alpha.
4. I assume an 'official work" is a Paramount-authorized source. As such, this paragraph would permit any information from any of the chronologies, technical manuals, art books, novels, comic books, playing cards, models, toys, and the like to be used to fill in gaps "when necessary". What constitutes a gap, or when it is necessary to fill it in, isn’t clear. With the broadest definition of a gap, an absence of information, this would appear to allow in all information that supplements or adds to canon. This, too, is an extraordinarily broad scope of allowed sources and does not reflect the current practices within Memory Alpha.
5. Inconsistencies are to be "dealt with", but how and to what end is unclear.
6. This paragraph seems to say that all the material in paragraphs 3, and 4 would have to be identified as non-canon and put in either an Apocrypha section or a non-canon "source page" (a term I don’t understand, I’m afraid). It is unclear the relation between this requirement and the one in paragraph 2, where it appeared such data could be put in to background or indented. And it is unclear whether non-canon could form the basis for an independent article (which may be what is meant by source page).
7. This paragraph introduces the concept of “in-universe” and “meta”, which require an explanation if part of a policy. I do not understand the distinction being drawn between “created” and “exist” in the first sentence. Valid sources, a critical concept here, is not defined or identified by reference. The use of the word “official” to describe every Star Trek project (which, by including non-canon, would mean the fan based shows on the web too) is not appropriate.
8. All jokes and culture information would be “meta” articles. This one makes sense, but the sentence could use a restructure for clarity.
As a practical matter, I believe that the policy as drafted is not reflective of current practice, is unclear on its face, is internally inconsistent, and is unworkable in real life. For instance:
  • what of Shran’s new artwork? (Not to harp on it, but it is recent and illustrative – not to mention interesting.) Under the policy it is not canon, would be allowed (but I can’t tell for what purposes), would have to be identified as non-canon, would be trumped (and thereby removed?) by canon information, and if it survived – even if consistent with canon – would end up in a background section or Apocrypha. Or maybe get an article on its own - I can't tell and can't do a structured analysis on it.
  • What of novels and games? They seem fair game for coming in (again, for some purpose – not sure what) under some combination of paragraphs 4, 6, and 7.
  • Conflicts are simply to be "dealt with"; but there is no guidance as to in what way.
  • It is unclear, but I think that the policy would require that all articles that are not based on the episodes as shown be included only in background or Apocrypha sections. In other words, the list that Shran developed for my review of those articles he feared would vanish would, indeed, vanish. This would include Cait, Aaamazzarite, Arcturian, and Betelgeusian, to name a few. If they could get their own articles, there is no guidance or limit on how many other non-canon things could get their own article.
  • If deleted scenes are allowed, how do we deal with two different versions of, say, Kirk's death? Bloopers?
  • How can we tell if production material was “meant” for canon?
I want to make clear that I am not nitpicking or finding holes because an alternative to my proposal has been posted; I don't care where it comes from or who ends up drafting it. I really just want something that makes sense and works to avoid conflict and promote standardized approaches. But in my opinion any suggestion has to at minimum be workable, clear, essentially reflective of current practices (if not policy), and capable of being consistently applied. I believe that this draft does not meet any of these criteria. I submit that a more detailed and understandable policy is what is needed, and I humbly suggest that making any further identified changes to the one I proposed might get us there. Aholland 03:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Of all the responses I was expecting, yours was the most anticpated. I realize I have no experience with writing an "airtight contract" like you do (no offense intended, I actually wanted to be a lawyer once), but I'll attempt to correct my "draft" based on your suggestions, and will attempt to respond with what was intended:

  1. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I believed that "canon" was defined that way by Paramount (probably one of those urban legend Trek fan things). Even if its a rule of thumb, I placed precedence on the so-called "canonical" subjects, which I defined based on the common knowledge I believe is agreed upon.
  2. I'm sorry, you caught me on this one. The material shall be "cited" with an indention and so on, not solely relegated to "background" stuff. After a second reading, that is confusing. That should "solve" this problem.
  3. Yes, all information from what I call "valid sources" is allowed, as long as it doesn't conflict with what I believed Paramount calls "canon." I should probably separate drafts to final drafts to avoid unnecessary confusion amongst the Valid sources. "Meant for canon" means the certain production material was created to be used specifically on an official "canon" (according to my misconception of Paramount's policy) Trek production, including things that may need external sources to ascertain what might have shown on TV, if we had HI-Def back then or something (bad joke, please don't use against me). If the production took the time to create a graphic for Star Trek, we should take the time to cover it in our "encyclopedia." What I mean by the canon precedence, is that if an inconsistency pops up strictly between canon and valid sources, canon should win every time (In my opinion).
  4. I specified official reference works, such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Star Trek Chronology. By filling in "the gaps" I don't mean using the unnecessary speculation or conjecture, I mean the material presented in these works to add to already created pages (with an indention and all that jazz). A gap is missing information, however, these works shouldn't be seen as "valid sources" just used to add to already valid sources if necessary (if the info isn't already there from a canon or valid source).
  5. Inconsistencies are to be "agreed upon" (a hard thing to do, I realize, on MA) on the talk page of whatever has inconsistent information. I already explained that canon "trumps" valid sources. Conflicts within canon or within valid sources do need to be discussed and figuring them out on a policy page could lead to some information not being used to the fullest extent possible.
  6. Sorry, you're mistaken. The paragraph specifies "information other than televised or theatrical projects." Paragraph 3 is all dealing in some way with these projects so they don't count as "non-canon." Paragraph 4 may have "non-canon" material (mostly in the background speculation), but as reference works they are supposed to be limited to "canon" (and valid) info. Apocrypha or "non-canon" applies to all official (authorized by Paramount/Desilu) including but not limited to, novels, video games, computer games, photobooks, official website games, and the like. When I wrote, "shall only be placed in various "Apocrypha" sections on pages created from canon or valid source citations, and/or on the "non-canon" source page," that meant we shouldn't create pages about subjects introduced and only used in "Apocrypha" but can add them to canon or valid sources pages under "Apocrypha" sections. For example, information about James T. Kirk from the novel Spectre can go under an apocrypha section on his page, but information about a ship only used in Spectre cannot.
  7. I'll be willing to expand upon the "in-universe" and "meta" definations, I just thought they were already covered under other policy pages. This section specifically requires that only Canon (as described) and "Valid Sources" (as described) are to be used when creating pages. When I say "exist," I cover already existing pages that would otherwise be exempt (lawyering enough for ya?) I defined Valid sources earlier (in paragraph 3), and that definition is "valid" throughout the whole policy. The use of the word "official" still covers any project authorized by Paramount, whether it falls into the "Canon," "Valid," or "Non-Canon/Apocrypha" sections. Fan-based stuff shouldn't count.
  8. Well, if it makes sense then I don't see no need for "re-structuring" however, I'll give it a go.

Now, without getting into your commentary (I respectfully disagree, but then again I made it), I'll move onto your questions:
Under this policy, Shran's new artwork is a valid source, and could even be used to create new pages, such as Ecoterrorism. It was production material created for a canon project (ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II"), so it falls under paragraph III (or "3" as I call it) as a "valid source." Any inconsistencies will be taken out by canon (stuck in an italicised/background note somewhere), but the everything else is valid.
Novels and games are covered by paragraph 7.
Conflicts are to be discussed on the talk page of the conflicted article, and agreed upon. Any more guidance is unnecessary and detracts from the community and wiki ideals (in my opinion).
Hopefully I have helped you understand more clearly (I will try to update my draft some more). I may need more guidance on how to include some FASA stuff, but it is my understanding that Aaamazzarite, Arcturian, and Betelgeusian are covered under valid sources (production info created for Star Trek: The Motion Picture, although not seen onscreen).
Well, Kirk's death is easy. Canon takes "precedence" in that it is more acceptable than "valid sources," so the death you and I saw in theaters is the one that counts. The other one can go in a background note for completeness. Any material from Kirk's death or bloopers that can be added to the Star Trek universe is great, but the conflicting stuff should not be used.
Well, I realize that some things are most assuredly "hastily" done or are "silly" but those are opinionated statements which may not reflect the true meanings of the production staff. We shouldn't try to "tell" if it was made. We should try to use any and all production material, known to be made for a television series (whether or not for legibility), and then "deal with" the conflicts that will undoubtedly arise in the manners that I propose.
Thanks for taking the time to "nitpick" (I know that's not what you're doing, but nitpicking can be fun) my proposal. I look forward to hearing from you again.--Tim Thomason 05:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Besides all those comments on the second suggestion regarding possible loopholes or misunderstandings, let me just ask: Why do we even need a second suggestion (and, if that continues, a third and fourth one)? This is not a competition for "who gets to write the new policy" - instead, we should work together on one of them to first define what exactly should be acceptable and what shouldn't according to a new policy, and second find the best possible way to put that into text form. I think Ahollands suggestion already does a very good job regarding the first task, and isn't too bad regarding the second. One of the reasons for that is the fact, that this discussion has already been reviewed, discussed and rewritten for some days now. I'm personally a little hesitant to start that process all over again for another suggestion - if there are still problems with the first suggestion, can't we just work together to fix those instead of simply creating another, parallel discussion? -- Cid Highwind 11:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem that I still see with the alternative suggestion, even with the explanations (and thank you, Tim, for them), is that it has fundamental structural and analytical shortcomings that will take a lot of discussion to get it to a point where it does no more than reflect what has already been collaboratively created. Started by me, but modified to address others' concerns and current practices. I agree with Cid Highwind: let's get the substance of the matter right in the one already being worked. After it substantively gets where it needs to be we can look at whether there are better ways of expressing it; there may or may not be. So I, too, propose to abandon second, third, and more parallel discussions at this time. I suggest that Tim (and others) instead bring up any issues, suggestions, and - especially - hypotheticals that can test the current redraft and see if the outcomes desired are met by it. Aholland 13:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The reason for the proposal in the first place was two reasons: first, offer an alternative, which you suggested was for the best; second, offer a less "legalese" version that allows flexibility and is (in my opinion) easily read. I deeply apologize for implying that your opinion doesn't matter (the whole "couple months" thing), as a "wiki"-community your opinion matters just as much as mine, or Alan's, or Cid's, or Aurelius's, or Harry's, or Mike's (well maybe not as much as Mike's). I apologize if I haven't offered much to help your draft, but I feel that my suggestions would probably be best summed up in another policy. I still feel your policy is too rigid, but I don't know how I could help fix that.--Tim Thomason 20:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Tim, thanks for your concern but there was no harm done, no apology needed, no hard feelings. :) I would ask that you do one thing for me, though. If you believe that the proposal I have out there is too inflexible, can you give me a couple of examples you are concerned about? Sort of a "here's the resource, and here's how I would like to see it used." Don't bother analyzing it under the policy (although you certainly can if you want), I just want to understand the result desired. I figure if you can describe your worries a little more, we can all better determine whether, indeed, the proposal is too inflexible or whether it nets you the result you have in mind for various situations. Aholland 20:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I'll respond above under Suggestion 1 comments (so Cid doesn't get mad).--Tim Thomason 20:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Just something to consider right on paragraph 1. As far as I understand it we use the Paramount Canon as a base and expand it (TAS for example). What's our policy on the two Jeri Taylor novels "Pathways" and "Mosaic" then? I understand the Paramount canon on startrek.com that these two are included in their canon, so shouldn't we do likewise? Of course again, filmed material takes precedence when contadictionsc arise, for example on the name of Chakotay's ship. Kennelly 13:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
No, we used a list of all episodes and movies as our "resources" from the beginning. First declared "canon", then later called "valid resource", the term that is still in use. At no point did we use a definition of "what startrek.com calls canon, plus a little more", and I don't think we should now start to use that definition, especially in regard to the two novels. -- Cid Highwind 21:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Canon?

Why do we need to mark certain articles as "non-canon," which we do according to the Restricted Validity Resources and Initial Article Creation section? If they truly are "non-canon" they shouldn't have an article in first place. I was under the impression that the pages with "Restricted Validity" have a questionable "canonicity" (not none) and a note providing the source should be enough to allow readers to make up there mind on whether it should be canon or not.--Tim Thomason 06:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

IMO this whole "new system" (which I didn't know about until just now) is confusing and convoluted. So umm, I say we have a recall vote. At least as long as we don't end up with another Governator. --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 06:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
not sure what any of these comments mean -- please use examples, descriptive languages, etc intead of arnie jokes. thx. -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 06:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't do any Arnold Schwarzennegar jokes, nor do I approve, I just asked a question, in what I thought was a descriptive manner, and am awaiting an answer from anybody.--Tim Thomason 06:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, for starters, which articles are being marked "non-canon" ?? -- i havent exactly been involved heavily in the new policy, just wondering which articles you mean. are there any that come to mind? i havent seen any major changes to any of our standard ops... -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 07:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a simple question on the policy (hence it being placed here) and not necessarily on any articles which may or may not have been affected. The policy specifies under the section marked "Restricted Validity Resources and Initial Article Creation" that an article created from a Restricted validity resource must clearly cite its sources and identify itself as being "Non-Canon." I am questioning this with my first statement above, as I don't believe we should mark valid, or restricted valid, resources as "non-canon."--Tim Thomason 07:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

If something is "non-canon" then we should not have the page in our database. If something comes from a "valid reference" or "resource" then it should be noted as such,