Talk:Darmok (episode)

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Contents 1 Episode talk page 1.1 Maintenance links 2 Shaka, and Casey, at Memory Alpha 3 Linguistic Errors 4 No linguists on the Enterprise? 5 Teachers 6 List of the metaphors 7 End of episode

[edit] Shaka, and Casey, at Memory Alpha

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I've removed the following line from the Background section:

The quote "Shaka, when the walls fell" has a direct English translation: "Casey, at the bat"

Not because I don't think it's true - I've followed the link and I see the connection. I just don't really think it qualifies as a 'direct English translation' for precisely the reason that the Tamarian metaphors caused problems. It's dependent on the culture of the person reading it. Granted, most 'western' English-speaking people could probably hazard a guess from 'at the bat' that Casey is something to do with baseball. But it might not necessarily have the immediate resonance in other English-speaking cultures that it does in America. Perhaps someone could suggest a more globally-understood reference? - Kaitiaki 20:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic Errors

This episode is sometimes used by linguistics teachers to aid in students' understanding of how languages work and evolve.

I wonder where this information comes from. I discussed the episode with some friends, who study linguistics. They considered it poorly thought-out. It seems like the author of the episode understood litte about linguistics in general. Here are some of the problems:

It seems like only Humans are willing to take an effort to understand the other one. The Tamarians don't seem to be interested at all in understanding how human language works. Understanding each other is always a mutual intellectual effort and requires both sides to be willing to change their perspective or at least 'digest' ther language for the other party. Isn't there such thing as a tamarian liguist? It is unlikely that there is no precedent in tamarian history for the misunderstanding portrayed here.

The biggest error is that it would be impossible for tamarians to teach the language to their offspring without using some kind of intermediate language. How would Tamarian babies learn the language? What would be the first metaphor a Tamarian baby would utter? What is the the Tamarian equivalent for mama? In such a society, there must have been certainly be some kind of children language, which works wihout the refrence to mythological concepts, so little children with yet no knowledge of history can talk with their parents. In that case, this language would be perfectly suitable for communication with foreign cultures.

While I don't agree with your reasoning, you are correct that this statement needs a citation. -- Jaz ^talk 17:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this will suffice as a citation: Karen Landahl, Linguist, 1951-2003, University of Chicago - Intricated ^{talk page} 19:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You assume they must teach their children language. If they had an inherited, genetic memory they would completely lack the need to communicate in a simple, child-like manner. In fact, as I see it, if they had a genetic memory, then this is exactly the sort of language that would evolve. We tell stories and use analogies as a method of presenting not only facts, but the feelings and complex human experience associated with life. The Tamarian language operates at this level and if you had a complete, built-in English language and mythos, speaking in metaphor would be advantagous. Similar to how you might speak to your immediate family members—your shared history makes explaining your feelings and positions on even a moderately complex subject as simple as a look. With a more general shared history, you, of course, have to give a bit more than a look. Certainly not canon, but interesting nonetheless, I think. —BradleyEE 03:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ on the statement following "It seems like only Humans [as opposed to Tamarians] are willing to take an effort to understand the other one. [...]" - to me it seems to be a clever way of pointing at a real-world issue: A large number of US citizens travels abroad knowing nothing but English, and expecting everybody else to learn a sufficient amount of English to be able to communicate with them - an attitude considered arrogant and lazy ("why bother, everybody speaks English, right?") by most of the locals. This episode plays on that theme, with the "lazy" ("why bother, there's an universal translator, right?") members of the UFP being forced to learn the foreign language.
84.56.179.183 21:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the same applies to ANY foreigners entering a foreign country; a certain precentage of them are unwilling to learn the culture and the language (or at least realize that their language won't be spoken there). It has nothing to do with the fact that the foreigner is American or not. To which, I have no issue with "It seems like only Humans [as opposed to Tamarians] are willing to take an effort to understand the other one. [...]"; unless it's the Tamarian way to assume that the other side's just gonna do all the work, I doubt a peaceful, diplomatic liaison would have sent someone out who is unwilling to learn more about the other side. .... I also agree that, while this is a pretty creative language, it's rather inefficient. I mean, let's assume that Tamarians have genetic memory (said above) or some sort of linked mind system that allows every Tamarian to know what even they're talking about. Despite that, events are pretty subjective; "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!" could also mean "two jerks came along and killed me, the beast of Tanagra". What about a human metaphor like "Shigemitsu and MacArthur on the USS Missouri": does that mean "victory" or "defeat/surrender"? How can a language flourish if the same story can have multiple different meanings? -- 66.92.0.61 05:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look at their metaphors, they are derived from their own ancient history, mythology, and works of literature. These would typically have a defined interpretation. Consider the wonderful scene in First Contact where Picard and Lily are arguing in the Ready Room. Lily says, "Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale!" We the audience, as well as Picard, knows exactly what she means. A language built around metaphors would use ones that have a direct and clear meaning. Of course if I said, "The Boy who Cried Wolf" to Garak, then there might be a bit of a confusion, but that's unavoidable for any language. Or not, since I know his character. As for both sides' actions, it does seem odd that neither seemed to study the other's language at all before meeting, seeing as the UFP and the Tamarians have had "seven previous encounters" over the past 100 years, according to Data. Then again, I guess if they had thought to study, the episode would be a lot less engaging. Ddeschw 18:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No linguists on the Enterprise?

There are over 1000 people on the Enterprise and they have not one linguist on board? Whoever at Starfleet selected Enterprise personal certainly sucks and should be fired. --84.149.255.55 05:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

they normally don't need one because 99% of all translations can be handled by the computer. in this case the translation was only partially complete, the words were translated but not the context.

[edit] Teachers

This episode is sometimes used by linguistics teachers to aid in students' understanding of how languages work and evolve.

Can we cite that with some examples of teachers, or something? For 8 months we have not had a citation, I am removing it until we can provide one. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 06:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of the metaphors

Would it be relevant to have a list of the metaphors used by Dathon and the other Tamarians? Interpretation would have to be quoted from the episode (e.g., "Picard inferred that he meant...."), naturally. -- Kojiro Vance | Talk 16:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is this. --Jayunderscorezero 21:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] End of episode

The episode ends with Picard in his Ready Room reading Homeric epics pondering whether he would have sacrificed his life in hope of communication.

No, it doesn't. The episode ends with Picard paying homage to Dathon's religious or cultural beliefs by mimicking his gesture of touching the knife and then touching the forehead. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.168.151.241 (talk).

Then be bold and fix it. This is a wiki.– Cleanse 03:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)