Talk:Series timeline

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Contents 1 Convert to wiki code 2 Clarify? 3 Easy request to help non-trekkis 4 TOS and TOS movies a century off 5 Alternative suggestion 6 Where is Star Trek: The Animated Series 7 Season Converter 8 Forum:Change to Spock's birthyear 9 Horizontal/Vertical? 10 Episode resoltuon

[edit] Convert to wiki code

Could someone clean this page up and convert it to wiki code? Thanks - metnever

Deep Space Nine ended in 2375, so that block or whatever needs to be filled as well. --From Andoria with Love 18:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Egad, those new colours at the top are awfully ugly. It was much better without them to my mind. With the new colours, the titles are nigh-unreadable. -- Sulfur 19:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

No DS9 goes over one year; the color bar says it ends in 2376, when it in fact ended in 2375. --From Andoria with Love 02:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Fans of the season 8 novels must have slipped that in... oh, those Niners! -- Captain M.K.B. 02:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarify?

Hmm, does this timeline - as is - really clarify anything? Don't get me wrong, I think it might be useful to have a timeline for all the series, but I don't know if this one achieves what it is supposed to.

If I'm trying to have an impartial look at it, I'm confused. The abbreviations might not make sense to everyone, and having them at the top while related color-coded cells are two screens below doesn't make this table easier to read. Also, the "variable-length timejumps" make it hard, if not impossible, to really understand how any two of the entries in this table are related. For example, at a first glance ENT seems to be followed up by TOS directly, although they are more than a century apart.

I don't know how to fix all of this at the moment, although I've got some ideas that I will try out on the weekend, probably. Meanwhile, perhaps there are other suggestions on how to make this work? -- Cid Highwind 11:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good thing to have, but I have the same concerns. As far as the header line scrolling off the top, perhaps we could put the body of the table in a scroll box so that the header is always visible. Or, we could duplicate the header cells at the bottom of the table as well. The the abbreviations expand if you hover on them, so I don't think that's as big of a problem, and we could also add a key.

The time gaps are a bigger problem, and I don't have a good solution for that right now. -- Renegade54 13:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easy request to help non-trekkis

I am not familiar with all the abbreviations used in the article. Please use the complete name or just link the abbreviations to the corresponding Star Trek-projects. The later can be easily done without having to change any design of the table. --80.137.7.36 01:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I came here to get a vague idea of the timing, but other than the basic stuff (i.e. TOS), I find the abbreviations a little confusing. 68.221.160.2 03:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TOS and TOS movies a century off

I have no idea how to edit this page,so I am not going to try to fix this, but TOS is wrong. On this chart, it is from 2165-2168. That would put it ten years after Enterprise, and about a century too early. In fact, the same is true for the TOS movies, they are all in 21xx on the chart, but they all took place in 22xx, a century later. I'd fix it, but I am not touching this article, I don't understand the code well enough. --OuroborosCobra 20:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems the entire 23rd century is missing. Is this article really useful? I'm looking at it and I see more confusing than a 'helpful guide'... - AJ Halliwell 21:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I put it as the 22nd century on accident. Will fix that. Do you think it's better to list every single year? Metnever 19:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative suggestion

(Moved from "Talk:Series timeline/temp")That seems pretty accurate to me.--Matthew 00:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I put up an alternative suggestion at "Series timeline/temp". Feel free to edit that, but at the moment please don't add any wikilinks, styles for background color etc. which would only complicate solving the remaining issues with this one. The main problem is that, while the boxes are "aligned" on years correctly, the box width is not proportional to the timespan each box represents. For example, in the "TNG" line, each movie box represents one year. Every space between these boxes also does, but is much smaller. The "TNG" box itself should be a little longer than the DS9 one and so on.

This could probably be solved by giving each box a fixed width proportional to the timespan, but in that case we should to the same with each "space", thus ending up with a very wide table. Is this necessary, or does this table do its job "well enough"? -- Cid Highwind 10:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The multiple line version is much easier to read, but could possibly do with some more vertical space between the separate segments. -- Sulfur 12:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

(Moved from "Talk:Series timeline/temp")Why not place the timeline from top to bottom instead of left to right ? I for one don't like to scroll left/right. Seems to me that a top/bottom scroll gives a more natural flow with MA. Just my E0.02 -- Q 15:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That is another option, basically the timeline we have now, with the series titles moved to the table itself. However, if I hear "timeline", I think "horizontal", not "vertical", so that suggestion may just be my personal preference. I don't think scrolling left/right isn't inherently bad, but the two existing designs could of course be merged somehow... -- Cid Highwind 16:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I like yours better Cid. Go ahead and overwrite mine. I like the one line timeline the most, but a top to bottom scrolling table would be better. Also, DS9 is off one year. According to the article it ended in 2375. Metnever 19:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Cid, do you know if the EasyTimeline extension is active on MA? The Special:Version page says it is, but the wiki doesn't seem to recognize the <timeline> and </notimeline> tags. -- Renegade54 01:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It should work, although the closing tag is </timeline>, not notimeline... on what page did you try it? I have to say that I don't really like the resulting layout, though... -- Cid Highwind 08:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I knew it was </timeline>... brain fart, heh. I tried copying one of the example timelines from wikipedia, just copy and paste into a new page, and the end result was... absolutely nothing. Nothing between the tags showed, nor did the tags themselves. -- Renegade54 13:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Odd, timelines work pretty well on my Kzinti page -- Kobi 16:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Could this entire page not be replaced by a diagram? There's a similar one on startrek.com. --Proudhug 21:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's an example I came up with. Click for a larger version. I'm sure someone can do something with this. --Proudhug 03:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Star Trek: The Animated Series

Okay so Star Trek: The Animated Series, or TAS, is not canon why!? Just because it is Animated does not mean it has to be Fanon/Non-Canon/Fan-Fiction (Whatever you would like to call it)! --Captain Zman 02:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The animated series is canon on Memory Alpha, it's just that people neglected to be include it here. --From Andoria with Love 02:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• We should add TAS on the Timelime, Kirk's five year mission ended in 2270 not 2269 or it would be a four year mission and Star Trek: The Motion Picture took place in 2273 because Kirks "five" year mission was from 2265 to 2270 and in a Quote from the movie says:

"Well, two-and-half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations may have made me a bit stale, but I wouldn't exactly consider myself untried... They gave her back to me, Scotty."

• 2270 plus two-and-half years is 2273!!! Please give me your thoughts on this. --Captain Zman 02:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, TAS should be included in the timeline. As for The Motion Picture, we tend to just refer to that as being set in the early 2270s, since we're not sure at what part of 2270 Kirk's five-year-mission ended. If it was early 2270, then there's a chance the film takes place in mid-to-late 2272. But, yeas, TAS should be added to the series timeline. --From Andoria with Love 03:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hey people, I'm back! Well lets see, go to the Stardate Page on the Star Trek Expanded Universe Wiki and type in Stardate click on one of the stardate links at the end of the page and you'll see the whole Stardate=Today math problem on Kirk's last mission and we will see what year and month is was and then we will do the math and see what year ST: TMP took plaece. --Captain Zman 07:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, according the TrekGuide.com stardate calculator, TMP took place in 2268, three years into Kirk's five-year mission. Further proof why fan-created stardate calculators are bs. ;) --From Andoria with Love 13:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• TrekGuide.com stardate calculator is way off! --Captain Zman 06:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Season Converter

Just a thought, but it would help if there was a general season-to-season comparison. That is to say if we could see that Season 1 of Voyager is more or less contemporary with with Season 3 of DS9.

[edit] Forum:Change to Spock's birthyear

After watching the episode "Yesteryear", I have fixed numerous timeline errors, the most notable being Spock's birthyear. According to the original timeline, Spock is born in 2230.

Yet, when I ran through the episode, it is stated by Spock that he wishes to time travel via the Guardian of Forever to a Vulcan of 30 years ago. If the year of this episode is 2269 as stated on the episode page, then this means Spock traveled to the year 2239. Again, according to Spock, he is saved by his cousin 'Selek' when seven years of age. Thus, if the events depicted in "Yesteryear" occured in 2239, Spock had to have been born in 2232, not 2230. Ergo, I changed any references to these events to the correct year.

(I didn't want to explain over and over why I made the change. I thought a single location would be ideal.)--Airtram3 13:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

There's still a problem with that - not one you're responsible for, though. :) It's the huge assumption that this episode really took place in 2269. Can we be sure about that? -- Cid Highwind 13:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the source for the original date of 2230 is the Star Trek Chronology where it is stated that according to a deleted scene from "Journey to Babel", Sarek and Amanda Grayson married 38 years prior to the episode (2267), meaning they were married in 2229 and then, another assumption, Spock was born about a year later, hence 2230. --Jörg 14:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Cid -- the episode date is by no means "fixed in stone" -- while the birth year is at least derived from a deleted script scene. It might make more sense to change the date of "Yesteryear" than it would to change the more well-established birth date. -- Captain M.K.B. 14:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the date of this episode is based on the assumption that TAS Season 1 is year 4 of the five-year mission running from 2265-2270 (which are up to 6 years, btw, leaving some wiggle room in itself), right? The exact assignment of episodes to years here escapes me at the moment... -- Cid Highwind 14:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Cid, you realize of course that the dates for ALL TOS episodes are based on an assumption. When looking at the whole picture, this kind of ties to the discussion over at "Forum:Date of Voyager's Return," where we get one or two calendar date references made in a whole series, and they are responsible for dictating or resetting the rest of the otherwise (almost) established time-line. So, here are a few points that need to be consider for this scenario as a whole:

• The calendar dates for TOS are based initially, and almost entirely, on the idea that the year that the episode aired in + 400 = 226x, as established by the Star Trek Chronology. This method completely disregarded the season that an episode aired, unlike the system that was later established in TNG (where 1 season = 1 year), and where TOS Season 1 might have been something like 1/1/2266 to 12/31/2266, rather than random date 2265 through random date 2267. In fact, the ST:Chronology seems to have "made up" most all of the dates in the Star Trek universe, especially for TOS. Meanwhile, this site, from day 1, has apparently recognized these dates, which are based on conjecture, yet ironically deems the source itself as non-canon, according to its own policies, meaning our entire time line is based on conjecture. The exceptions, of course, being ENT, where the year was explicitly given, and the 3 or so post-TOS series episodes that establish an actual calendar year: TNG: "The Neutral Zone", VOY: "Eye of the Needle", "The 37's"; with several establishing calendar days (but not actual years): TOS: "Charlie X", TNG: "Data's Day", VOY: "Non Sequitur", "Year of Hell", "11:59", and "Homestead"-- with the latter being the only episode to actually have the time-line adjusted according to compensate-- perhaps.
• While none of that is truly applicable to TAS, establishing a time-line for the series does. So, to say the least, the date assumptions in TOS-- that we are partially responsible for and the ST:Chronology is responsible for-- only make the task of pegging the dates of TAS down that much more difficult to tackle. These difficulties begin at TOS: "Where No Man Has Gone Before", which apparently takes place almost a full year (2365) before the rest of the first-third of TOS Season 1. Why this is, escapes me. If the plot line goes: "These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission--," and the mission began in, say 2265, why does our time line drop off, then pick up again midway through the second year of the mission, 2266, with the season ending midway through the third year of the supposed "five-year mission"? If "Where No Man Has Gone Before" presumably picks up at the beginning of Kirk's "five-year mission," why can't the rest of TOS Season 1 follow, rather than arbitrarily skipping ahead a year to follow the "+400 formula" established by the ST: Chronology? The least we could do is explain why we did this on M/A, because if this is wrong, then this obviously trickles down, causing us to wonder if TOS: "Journey to Babel", another episode referenced here, really happened the year that we have it has cited as having happened.
• In the entire TOS series, only "Charlie X" manages to establish a calendar date reference where, "On Earth today, it's Thanksgiving" -- allowing us to assume that at that point it was late November on the Enterprise, just because it was on Earth-- the same can almost be said about the "Homestead" reference too. But the question still remains: is it supposed to be Thanksgiving, 2265 or 2266? This, of course, all goes back to why "Where No Man Has Gone Before" mysteriously takes place a year before the rest of the episodes from that season.
• So back to the topic at hand, and what this all essentially boils down to: why does the majority of TAS Season 1 episodes fall within the year 2269? The only, I daresay, plausible reference I can find that can place any TAS episode in the TOS time-line, was made in the very episode that started this discussion: TAS: "Yesteryear". It is here that it is established by McCOY that "He's been your first officer for five years", placing this episode within earshot of the final full year of Kirk's "five-year mission." But then again, this is where all my previous points become necessary to think about: What year it is, which then again depends on when exactly the mission began (2265 was never fully established, but then again, when in 2270 the mission ended (c.f. VOY: "Q2") wasn't either), and then of course, was this reference made to represent exactly 5-years (versus "almost", versus "the duration of this five-year mission, thus far").

So while Cid is right in as far as it being an assumption that "Yesteryear" really took place in 2269, it is really no more of an assumption than the rest of the TOS time-line. So in the end, this much is clear: "Yesteryear" wiggles in near the end of the "five year mission," which does seem to fit into the year 2269-- at least the latter half of it; if not the very beginning of 2270. But the real question is, when does TOS really take place? --Alan del Beccio 21:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, talk about opening a whole new can of worms. Okay, I'm gonna just type here and see if anything makes sense (I'm not holding my breath). Anyways, as stated above, we know that Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270, courtesy of Icheb in VOY: "Q2". And since we have no reason to believe that the five-year mission was interrupted for some reason or another, I think we can safely assume that the mission began in 2265. (There's also a possibility that the mission actually began in '64 and ended in '69 and only returned to Earth in 2270, but that's just my own bit of speculation; without further proof, we should just assume it began in '65.) We also known that "The Trouble with Tribbles" took place at least sometime in the mid-to-late 2260s, based on the assumption (likelihood, actually) that "Trials and Tribble-ations" was set in the early-to-mid 2370s, 105 years later. As for TAS, that series was intended to be part of the mission depicted in TOS, right? Judging from D.C. Fontana's beliefs on the subject, I think it's safe to assume that it was the writers'/producers' intentions that TOS and TAS be part of the same five-year mission. So, TOS+TAS = one five year mission, taking place between 2265 and 2270.

Now, as Alan said, McCoy stated in "Yesteryear" that Spock had been serving as Kirk's first officer for five years. So, this means that the episode was set either at the beginning of the ship's final year (2269) or exactly five years after the ship set out (2270). Also, one must remember other facts revealed about Spock's career throughout the series. In "Where No Man", Dr. Dehner states that Spock and Gary Mitchell had been serving together "for years" at that time. In what capacity or on what post they were serving together can only be speculated, but one must also take into account that Spock had served Capt. Pike for 11 years, and that "The Menagerie" took place 13 years after "The Cage". This means that, at that time, Spock may have well been serving under Kirk for two years, placing "The Menagerie" at 2267 (which is where we currently have it). We also know that Spock entered Starfleet Academy 18 years prior to "Journey to Babel". So, with the knowledge that TOS takes place during the late 2260s, this places his entrance into the Academy in the late 2240s (we have it at 2249), his service aboard Enterprise beginning in the early 2250s (with "The Cage" taking place in 2254, as already listed), and his service under Kirk beginning in 2265. I'm sure I missed some variable in there which someone will point out to me, but that's the way I see things right now. "WNMHGB" may take place a few years after 2264/65, based on Dehner's comment; "The Menagerie" takes place in '67; and the entirety of TAS takes place in the fifth and final year of the mission, not in the fourth as Fontana would like. This means, however, that we're missing a year of the journey somewhere since we have three years of TOS and one year of TAS (albeit, in two seasons).

If I were to speculate, I would say that Spock began serving under Pike in '52, Kirk and crew assumed command of Enterprise in '63 (Enterprise-B was the first Enterprise in thirty years without Kirk in command) during which time Spock and Mitchell began working together (explaining Dehner's comment), and the mission itself began in '64 or '65 (again, we should just assume the latter).

Where am I going with all this? I have no frakin' clue. I thought maybe typing some facts would give me some ideas as to how to solve this puzzle, but I thought wrong. Maybe someone else can use the above info to figure things out... otherwise, just ignore this entirely. --From Andoria with Love 01:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a couple corrections, Shran, with the facts-- and I'm not even touching the wheelbarrow load of speculation:

1. Icheb said "Finally, in the year 2270, Kirk completed his historic five year mission and one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history came to a close." Killing the theory that it started in '64 or ended in '69.
2. McCoy actually stated in "Yesteryear" that Thelin had been serving as Kirk's first officer for five years, not Spock. Seeing that Spock was the only element removed and replaced in that timeline, there is much less reason to think that that line wouldn't apply to him just as equally. That is, I cannot fathom any reason why the absence of Spock from the timeline would have any influence on the date that Kirk took command.

While the rest of your speculation is interesting...you must keep in mind that a lot of the dates you are establishing are pretty conjectural. If, for example, Kirk's mission did indeed start in 2265, and you took Harriman's word literally, then perhaps Star Trek Generations really takes place in 2295. Otherwise, rounding 28 years to 30 isn't that big of a leap...--Alan del Beccio 02:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that Spock/Thelin took over in 2264 while Kirk was in command, but before his historic five year mission? Like, during a refit, shakedown, or training cruise.--Tim Thomason 03:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

There are so many issues with the Star Trek: Chronology, and which are duplicated here unfortunately.

a.) A look at the history for the original. Let's take the second pilot. We have two events set approximately two hundred years before the episode: the misson of the SS Valiant and the poem "Nightingale Women" is published. The year for the latter is given as 1996, which would place the episode in the mid-to-late 2190's. So, when the events were shifted to the mid-23rd century, why do we now have one event occuring two hundred years before (Valiant's mission), and the other occuring approximately two hundred seventy years before (Nightingale Women). Shouldn't they be in the same year? b.) There is somewhat clear canonical evidence in the original that between the second pilot and "Space Seed", the same year is considered. In the latter, Khan as having awakened two hundred years after his launch in 1996, thus placing this episode along with the second pilot in the mid-to-late 2190's (or, more accurately, 2196.) If we take the "Menagerie" into account, then we are at least two years into the mission. This is supported further by the episode "Day of the Dove" which mentions the Organian Treaty as occuring three years before. So, if we consider these events, we are seeing years two to five of the original mission. c.) Mr. Okuda ignored canonical evidence stated in the Next Generation which placed the events in "Data's Day" as occuring in a October of a year, on stardate 44390. If we followed canonical evidence, then a stardate year begins in the late summer of one year and ends in the early summer of the following year. In that line of thought, "Encounter at Farpoint" occured in the fall of 2363 and "The Neutral Zone" occured in the summer of 2364.--Airtram3 05:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:Alan -- I knew I got something wrong in there. Actually, I'm surprised there isn't more. Thanks for the corrections, though. --From Andoria with Love 06:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horizontal/Vertical?

Could we PLEASE change this to a vertical table? I'm bringing it up here because such a change has been reverted in the past.

Honestly, while I know time lines are "supposed to be" done horizontally, I think the current format is incredibly annoying. The wiki format is designed for scrolling down, not sidways. I recommend having a simple table, with all decades even if there aren't series there (so as to indicate passage of time), and several horizontal slots to accommodate multiple series at the same time. This would convey exactly the same information in a much cleaner way.

This would also have the advantage of having much simpler code. – Cleanse 02:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Episode resoltuon

It's great to see how the seasons line up, but has anybody figured this out yet? If you were going to watch every episode/movie ever made in "chronological" order, for instance, what is the last TNG episode you watch before you watch the first episode of DS9, or what episode of DS9 do you watch before you wtch the first episode of Voyager, etc? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.68.44.81 (talk).

That information gets broken down by year...starting in 2369 and ending 2375, for the overlapping series. --Alan 05:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So then DS9 S01E01 is the same "Day" as TNG S06E01, and VOY S01E01 is the same "Day" as DS9 S03E01? How do you line up DS9 S04 with VOY S02 then?

No. As already pointed out by Alan, the episodes are listed chronologically on the years pages. Read them.– Cleanse 22:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what he meant... when he said "broken down by year" I took that to mean that we only had resolution up to the year...